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From: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #734
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Traveller-digest      Monday, December 9 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 734



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starships--Got IT! (fwd)
Re: Starports
Re: Strephon & Dulinor
Re: GA6:  Lil' Nell
Drop tanks
Damper Booby Traps
Re: No Grids
Re: Strength of Aslans and Domain of Deneb (Long)
If that Foss he don't succeed, cry, cry again
Re: Long Messages
Re: Foss Art
Re: Things that make you go 'Hmmmmm'. 
It's hard to see a hardback
Beating a Dead Horse
Re: Starships--Got IT! (fwd)
Re: Starships: no map grids
Re: The New Look of Traveller
Re: Starships--Got IT! (fwd)
Re: Long posts, short final word
Re: Hi-Ex in vacuum

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 02:48:28 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Starships--Got IT! (fwd)

> 
> << Oh and another thing. The design rules only go up to 5000 tons >>
> 
> That is REALLY lame!  What were they thinking?  How am I supposed to
convert
> the Fighting Ships of the Imperium, most of which are 100,000 tons and
above?

Yep, IIRC, the  "Sylea"-class BB is 200Ktons . . . but for my M0 game, 5Kt
_is_ a DN/CVA hull. Time to whip out FF&S if you still want the big boys.

Rich "Bigger Ain't Necessarily Better" Ostorero
stormhvn@inreach.com
> 
> Brian (bigger IS better!) Mays : )

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 12:34:25 -0800
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran?= Damberg <damberg@hem.passagen.se>
Subject: Re: Starports

Jeff Zeitlin has written a RICE paper on starports that you probably
would like to check out. It's available at:
http://www1.execnet.com/~jeffz/traveler/starport.txt

goeran

Thad Coons wrote:
> 
> I haven't seen much detail on Starports, so I thought I'd try to flesh out
> the minimal descriptions in the rules.
> These are proposed minimun standards only: comment is invited.
> Each facility needs to meet at least the requirements of the next lower
> class plus the new requirements. Typical facilities will often partially
> qualify for a higher class.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 03:50:06 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Strephon & Dulinor

> From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
> Subject: Re: Norris to the rescue! Part 3
> 
> From: HDHale@aol.com
> 
> >   Emperor Strephon was AWOL on the day of the killings.  The fact that he would allow a double to stand in for him in a meeting with one 
of the half dozen most powerful nobles in the Imperium, and one with 
which he apparently was having some difficulty with, tells you something 
of how corrupt the Imperial family had become, or just how incompetant 
Strephon really was in the end.
 
> You're probably right, but maybe Strephon intended to diss Dulinor.  Dulinor would likely have realized that it was a double and been 
insulted -- but also put in his place, as someone who doesn't have a 
right to see the Emperor.
 
> - --Glenn 
	I still think Strephon was right to leave Capital to investigate 
the Empress Wave but even_if_he was wrong to leave that does not 
mean that he was wrong to miss his meeting with Dulinor.  Just because 
two important politicians are in the same room does not make the meeting 
important.  It can be just a ceremonial public affirmation of details 
that have already been worked out, or evan just a photo opportunity. The 
same situation can apply to the meeting with the Aslan ambassador 
(although they probably would not see it that way)

	  It is not Strephons JOB to make Dulinor happy, it his job to 
run the Imperium.  While feudal loyalties do run both ways & Strephon 
does owe Dulinor something for his "loyalty" (at least as far as 
Strephon knew) this loyalty takes second place to duty.  Dulinor should 
trust that if Strephon is gone he has a very good reason to be gone. He 
owes his place as Archduke to Strephon & Strephon got some unfavorable 
reactions for appointing him as Archduke.

	We also have no reason to assume Dulinor would_know_that he was 
dealing with a duplicate.  It has never been cannonically established 
(anywhere I have seen) that Dulinor & Strephon had a personal 
relationship that would let Dulinor recognize a fake or that the meeting 
was informal enough that he would get the chance if he could. 
	
	As for the notion that Strephon knew that Dulinor was having 
problems with him the data does not support that either.  Yes the 
reforms that Dulinor advocated were not going much of anywhere 
Imperiumwide but the fact that they went anywhere & that he had a chance 
to try any reforms is due to Strephons appointing him Archduke.  
Strephon presumably knew that Dulinor was disappointed but he had no 
reason to believe that Dulinor would Go Postal on him with a gun.  That 
is the job of the spies to anticipate & they are the ones who failed - 
not Strephon.

	Another point you is that the duplicate of Strephon who was 
killed by Dulinor was a CLONE of Strephon.  If Strephon can not trust 
his own clone, someone who is genetically identical to him, was raised 
to fill in for him, & has been pretending to be him for the last 50 
years or so, who can he trust.  Moreover who says that a clone does not 
have as much right to act as Emporer as the "real" Strephon does - a 
difference that makes no difference IS no difference.	

	It seems to me that a lot of the analysis of the rebellion that 
I have seen on the list uses the benefit of 20-20 hindsight.  Yes a Very
Bad Thing happened because Strephon was gone - but Strephon had no way 
to know this & based on the data he had he did the right thing.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 08:13:01 -0500
From: rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca (Roderick Darroch Elliott)
Subject: Re: GA6:  Lil' Nell

Kenneth Bearden wrote:


[snippage]
>  Sling
>
>DESCRIPTION
>
>Manufactured primarily for the Imperial Navy, the weapon is normally
>carried on a sling that enables it to be fired from the hip using the
>attached laser sight.  The performance of this weapon is respectable
>with the shot round's ability to penetrate AV1 at short range.  For
>close fighting where range is not an important consideration, such as
>is found in boarding actions or urban locales, this is the small arm
>of choice for the Imperial Navy.

[snippage]


        Seems like someone else noted that exception for shotguns to the
rule that weapons do only a max of 3 dice damage and decided to try and
exploit it to the hilt...  why am I not surprised :)?

        I've been working on an automatic shotgun for our upcoming
Traveller game.  I haven't run it through FF&S yet, just done some sketches
with my CAD program.  It looks to be a very different beast; it's only
70-odd cm long with the stock folded, with a 25-round drum magazine.  The
barrel works out to being about 30 cm...  Essentially, it's a full-auto
sawed-off shotgun.

The whole concept is simple, cheap, mass-produced, mostly plastic horror
weapon for defending starships (with side markets for quelling riots in a
hurry, hunting sparrows flocks at a time, and so forth), so no gizmos.
Personally, I doubt _anyone_ needs a laser sight to hit something with a
fully automatic shotgun with a barrel a foot long :).  I'll post it when I
get it designed, (over Xmas).

------------------------------

Date: 09 Dec 96 08:12:33 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Drop tanks

>> The version used by Tukera isn't, but the ones described under the
Megatraveller rules surely must be. My theory is that the first  generation of
improved capacitors dosen't allow reuse, but that  second generation capacitors
does. I posted a long posting about this  on gdw-beta some weeks ago. If you
like, I'll send you a copy. <<

What's this "capacitor" stuff? I missed that, aren't they just boxes of fuel?
I'd like to see your article.

>> >> 3) _Fifth Frontier War_: Very heavily modified _Imperium_ system, about
the   >> (oddly enough <grin>) Fifth Frontier War.  >  >I own this one too.
Great game. Full of background detail about the   >war and very integrateble
with the role playing game.  They even have >rules for deciding the war as you
play your role playing game.

Does anyone know where I could get a copy?    Please? <<

Oh, now there's a question! It took me nearly five years to track down a second
hand copy - and no, you can't buy it! <g>

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | No great scoundrel is ever uninteresting.                    |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: 09 Dec 96 08:12:29 EST
From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Damper Booby Traps

>> As an example, take a standard shipping container, place some *simple*
detectors in it, along with a bunch of subcritical masses of  fissionable
material, all damped. If an *external* damper field  appears, the subcritical
masses are brought together and surrounding  explosive charges armed. <<

It's a nice nasty idea, but what happens when the carrying ship turns it's _own_
nuclear dampers on to stop all those incoming missiles?

>> While romantic, its harder than hell to envision a democratic   government
whose communications range a couple of years from border   to border becoming
anything more than pure anarchy.  Perhaps concern   about basic human rights on
a local level would be a nice touch, but   I can't see a democracy in the
Western Civilization sense really   working. <<

About the most democratic possibility, with this problem in mind, is to let most
worlds decide their own governmental structure, with a light overlordship
provided by self-sufficient, locally empowered Imperial nobles. Oh! That's what
we've got.

I always thought that we as Travellers would say the words "Imperial Standard"
about something like equipment or ships real fast and then move on, trying not
to notice that the concept is basically impossible....

>> Indeed, and that's why the ravening _ihatei_ hordes descending on the
defenseless (ha!) Regency are so unrealistic. It would be much more  ECONOMIC
for the Aslans to conquer a neighbouring clan and use the ship  to go back and
forth carrying MANY _ihatei_ for the same price <<

That would also be a cracking openeing for a mildly unscrupulous PC human
merchant outfit with a reasonably big ship. Ferrying kitties to their new home,
guarded by a warship! Sounds like a milk run. Just a few difficulties....

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------] | Hugh Foster
100326,446       | |   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster
| | Life is like a dogsled team.  If you ain't the lead dog,     | | the scenery
never changes.                                   |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Mon,  9 Dec 1996 09:08:09 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Subject: Re: No Grids

- --part_AED187790005B6C900000004
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Disposition: Inline

William Hostman suggested copying grids onto transparencies to solve the "no 
grid" problem with the deckplans in _Starships_.  

Another way to solve the problem is to photocopy the deckplans onto graph 
paper.  This does not let you position the grid as nicely, but it does have 
the advanatage of not slipping when in use.

- --Chris W. 

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]  My opinions, not InterCon's.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept
the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money."  [author unknown]

- --part_AED187790005B6C900000004--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 09:45:43 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Strength of Aslans and Domain of Deneb (Long)

In a message dated 96-12-08 10:26:32 EST, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> There are no rules about how quality of crew affects ship performance, but
>  as far as that goes the Aslans aren't elite; they are _ihatei_, equipped
>  with obsolescent ships. As for the TL of the reserve forces, the salient
>  point about them seems to be that they are locally produced and
maintained, 
>  which means that they may be TL 14 in some subsectors and even TL 13 in a 
>  few, but in Tobia, Trin's Veil, and Glisten they would be TL 15 (They may 
>  be _old_ TL15 ships, if they are regular navy hand-me-downs, but they
won't 
>  be any older than the _ihatei_ ships). 

Actually there are rules re: crew quality in BL & BR, as well there should
be.  A trained, experienced, and motivated crew is a greater asset that a
*slightly* better ship.  It ain't just the bus, it's who's driving it.

>   As for crew quality, it is possible
>  under High Guard rules to have a long career in a planetary navy. I see no
>  reason why the reserve fleets and PDFs wouldn't be up to snuff.
 

Don't confuse a long career with an elite crew.  Elite forces are those who
are trained and experienced, but not yet worn out from constant fighting.
 Reserve forces, by their very nature, don't get into a whole lot of fights,
so the idea of them being *elite* is very, very unlikely.  Mind you, they
would be fighting to protect their homes, which has got to count for some
sort of advantage, though I see reserves vs. ihatei as something of a
stalemate at best for the Regency.

I have stayed out of this one for a while, but here's my Cr 0.02:

If Norris tried to cross Corridor for the purposes of helping Strephon, or
himself, to reintegrate the Imperium, the results likely would be disastrous.
 I don't believe that the Regency has the naval strength for extended
campaigns toward Capital, *and* defending it's spinward flank.  As I said
above, the reserve fleets could probably hold their own, and little else, vs.
the ihatei, the Vargr or the Sword Worlds, but against a coalition of the
same with or without the Zhodani, they would be hard pressed to achieve any
significant victories.  If the Zhodani were to support a new Outlands
Coalition (of the Sword Worlds and Vargr, and possibly the ihatei), (a none
too unlikely scenario, given the fact that the "joes" wouldn't welcome a
reunited Imperium) the reserve fleets would be hip deep in what would hit the
fan.  

Now to really throw y'all a curve:  I don't believe Norris would agree that
it is in the best interest of the Regency to reunite the Imperium anyway.
 His reforms are far easier for him to enact "behind the Claw," without a
distant emperor trying to tell him what is best for his domain.  Remember,
Norris is a man who used his advance knowledge of the emperor's death to
elevate himself to a position of greater authority, a fairly mercenary
tactic, regardless of how altruistic his motives were.  He is a former
intelligence officer who must have been planning some kind of radical (by
Imperial standards) course for Deneb for some time, and saw an opportunity
when he received that fateful message.  What good would it do him to now
subjugate himself, and his territory, to the larger desires of a reunited
Imperium?  Very little good, indeed.  An interesting "alternate future,"
starting prior to the assassination of Strephon might involve Norris seizing
power and Deneb seceding from the Imperium.  Given my feelings about the
power controlled by the dukes which I've expressed here before, it isn't that
unlikely a scenario.  Really.  Norris is surrounded on all sides (except for
a few subsectors to trailing) by societies which distrust the Imperium (the
Zhodani), dislike the Imperium (the Sword Worlds), want to invade it's lands
(the Aslan), or want to plunder it's wealth (the Vargr).  Norris supports
fairly radical notions of government (again, by Imperial standards) and seeks
acceptance of psionics in general and the Zhodani specifically.  The Zhodani
would be pleased by this turn of events (a psionic-tolerant, non-expansionist
polity with plenty of high-tech resources would be a valuable and welcome
trading partner), and probably would be able to help keep the Sword Worlds
and Vargr in line.  Likewise, the Aslan could be coopted effectively using
the tactics seen in the Regency sourcebook (offering land to some clans in
return for patrolling the border, keeping other clans out, thereby avoiding
direct conflict between the Regency and the Aslan governments).  Just an idea
I've been brewing for a while.  What do you think?


Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 09:45:49 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: If that Foss he don't succeed, cry, cry again

OK, sorry for the horrible subject title, but...

I am of two minds regarding the Foss artwork (no, I'm not; Yes! I am...)
which echo many of the thoughts printed here, though I thought I'd help
achieve a quorum.  Actually, I *REALLY* like the paintings.  I think they are
interesting, thought-provoking, and kinda cool, despite the obvious technical
inaccuracies.  I think they may grab the eye of youngsters who have never
played Traveller and are all caught up playing those silly, over-priced,
story-lacking CCGs (Oops; don't walk in that minefield, Timmy...), which by
the way, *ALL* have interesting, eye-catching art slapped onto them (or at
least try to).  There are a lot of wee lads hanging about my FLGS who are
throwing their cash around without a second thought to get some "really cool,
impossibly rare, funky-art-plastered Death Wish/Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card"
for the Magickal Vampyre: The Get-Together Just Prior to Doomsday,
Extremely-Limited, Mind-Numbing CCG (all rights reserved).  :-)  Maybe that's
who (and what) the art is for (and frankly, we old farts would likely benefit
from a sudden influx of cash to the publishers of our fave game system).

And I *absolutely* do like Foss' art.  No kidding.  But, it's not Traveller.
 No how.  No way.


Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

P.S.--- Whew.  Can you tell I wrote this one late at night?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 09:45:47 -0500
From: TPeterAZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: Long Messages

Long messages: Keep 'em up.  (Just mark 'em as such).  More is better, I say.


Tim Peter
<TPeterAZ@aol.com>
"Never let your schooling get in the way of your education."--- Mark Twain

P.S.---Deckplans, however, are probably best posted to a Web site.  Format
problems, and all, don't you know.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 08:58:21 -0500
From: fenris@solon.com (Derek Dees)
Subject: Re: Foss Art

Rob Prior typed

>PS.  A friend in the printing business tells me that having several pages of
>colour art is not cheap.  (Depending on print run, the colour art + cover
>could well have been over half the price of the book!)  Am I the only one who
>wants cheaper books and no colour art?

No Rob, you are not the only one that would prefer less (not no) color art
and cheaper books. I picked up the Starships book last night (which means
it's hit Minneapolis/St. Paul) and have taken a quick spin through it. It
is very pretty and I have no complaints the illustrations, other than the
quantity and the amount of color. I did not think, however, it was a $20
book. Based on the content and comparing it with my White Wolf, Call of
Cthulhu, and other systems, based on content, I'd rate it a $10-12 book,
$15 at the outside.

The information inside is nice, I've played Traveller for a long time, but
not as GM. So, except for what I can pick up here and there, I've very few
CT books, no MT books, and some of the TNE books. I was and am looking
forward to the other books, but if the price stays this high, I'll
reconsider. I know that today's audiences, especially the younger audiences
need the pretty pictures to be intrigued (a gross generality, I know).
However, if they are survivors of the White Wolf Maelstrom, the continued
supplements at $18-25 will be a disadvantage rather than an advantage.



Derek

fenris@solon.com
http://www.solon.com/~fenris


And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night.
                        M. Arnold "Dover Beach"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 10:25:16 -0500
From: Earl Wajenberg <earl@chrysalis.com>
Subject: Re: Things that make you go 'Hmmmmm'. 

In our home-made rule set, we have three precognitive psi skills.
Each is highly restricted, due to the difficulties of gaming 
prescience if you aren't really prescient yourself...

"Anticipation" is very short-range prescience.  It is essentially 
limited to a single combat round and lets you do things like duck 
blaster bolts.  Luke Skywalker probably has something like Anticipation
and uses it to parry blaster bolts with his light-sabre.

"Foresight" is retro-fitted preparedness.  "Gee, if we only had a 
short length of wire with us!"  [Psychic PC's player succeeds at 
Foresight roll.]  "It just so happens I have a short loop of wire
here in my purse.  I dropped it in this morning.  It just seemed like 
a good idea at the time; I couldn't say why."

"If Sense" gives you a qualitative feel for well-defined options.
[PCs arrive panting at an intersection, bad guys scheduled to turn the 
corner and spot them any second.]  "Which way!?"  [Psychic PC rolls.]
"Hm.  Straight ahead feels calamitous.  To the left feels dull.  To the 
right feels ... interesting."  "Left! I LOVE dull!"  "No, right! We 
still haven't found the Secret Gizmo!"

Earl Wajenberg

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:55:11 GMT
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: It's hard to see a hardback

        Well, Ann Flagella told me Friday that they are shipping my hardback
now... It's only three months from the day they charged my VISA for it :-(
        For Traveller's sake, I hope IG Customers Service improves a bit in
the future. OTOH, if I ever see my hardback, I think I will not need to read
it: every page has been already discussed on the TML, right? ;-)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                          (34) 6 5903614
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      Fax: (34) 6 5903685
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 11:19:03 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Beating a Dead Horse

OK, we know that lots of people here do not like Chris Foss's artwork in the
T4 rulebook! Can we move on to some other subject? PLEASE?
                                        Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 11:19:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Starships--Got IT! (fwd)

Hi.

> From: Eric Freitas <edf@atlantic.net>

> What do people (on this list) look for in good starship deck-
> plans?  I have a number of ship deckplans, that I may not have
> originally designed for Traveller, but have either been or can
> be.  If people are interested maybe I'll make them available
> somehow.

What I really liked about the outstanding ship descriptions in "Safari
Ship", "Signal GK", "Death Station" and, of course, "Kinunir" was the
fact that each room on the ship was numbered, and there was in the text
an itemized description that told what was in each room, and often what
the room looked like.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 11:24:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Starships: no map grids

Hi.

> From: David Blustein <dtb@NASCRAG.ORG>

> Another possibility that comes to mind if the deck plans are all
> drawn to the same scale (e.g., 25mm = 6m?) would be to grab one or two

The deck plans are not all to the same scale.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 11:33:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: The New Look of Traveller

Hi.

> From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>

> I had occasion to take a look at T4 and Starships (Official notice:
> Starships reached the Wash. DC area at least by 12/6/96) at my FLGS Holiday
> party tonight and came to the conclusion that Foss et al's artwork (I am NOT
> a fan!) is a good idea.  Why?  I looked all around T4 and saw the pile of
> other RPGs - horror, Sci-fi, fantasy, etc., on the new products table - and
> T4's artwork looked GOOD by comparison.  I've seen several comments about
> how the artwork is good, but is NOT Traveller (I agree), but that's not the
> issue. The artwork doesn't add (much) information.  My scouts still look
> like CT scouts...  What the artwork DOES do is grab the attention of the
> card collectors, comic readers, Games Workshop junkies, and random other NEW
> people that we need for T4 to succeed!  They flip through the book, say
> "Cool!", and read a bit; then, perhaps, they pick up a copy.  When the next
> shop game's underway, they show up to watch and maybe play... 

I couldn't agree more. I've never been an "arty" kinda guy, so as far as
Trav art goes, it has never been more than a recruitment tool for me.
In the past, much of Traveller's art has been rather bleak looking line 
drawings, not so great for recruitment. Given my needs and purposes,
Foss is easily the best artist who has ever worked for Trav (I've been
playing since 1979).

> - Bill

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 11:50:33 -0500
From: BrianMays@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starships--Got IT! (fwd)

In a message dated 96-12-09 11:26:04 EST, you write:

<< What I really liked about the outstanding ship descriptions in "Safari
 Ship >>

What I liked best about the Safari Ship deck plans were the pictures of the
GROOVY 60's hunter's lounge!  : )

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 11:21:37 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Long posts, short final word

On  8 Dec 96 at 22:38, Craig Berry wrote:


> I declare the issue closed.  Do what thou wilt, and all that.

Great, Craig.  We are in total agreement.  Let's drop this thing.

Regards,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 11:21:38 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Hi-Ex in vacuum

On  9 Dec 96 at 9:18, Stewart Eyres wrote:


> Anyone any idea how effective high explosive (and related ammo types)
> would be in a vacuum - ie. what fraction of the effect is due to the
> shock wave of the air expanding from the explosion, and what fraction
> due to the actual explosive device?  This is important as many of the
> more destructive weapons rely on explosive ammo.

I just asked a similiar question about grenades and here's what I 
gathered from all of the informed minds on this list.

I've simplified this, just like the T4 rules are simplified, but 
basically, here's how I'm playing explosions.

If a grenade is in physical contact with a surface or character, I 
let it do full damage.  In this manner, you can still have breaching 
charges for starship hulls and so forth.  But, I do not allow 
concussion damage if the target is not in physical contact.

I have my explosives, in my House Rules system, rated, like in TNE, 
for both concussion and fragmentation damage.  For example, take the 
generic grenade listed in the T4 main book.  It says that it does 7 
dice damage (and under the really simply T4 rule, this is all 
considered fragmentation damage).  In my game, I've split this 
grenade into its concussion and fragmentation components.

The same grenade looks like this:

Concussion Damage:  2
Burst Radius:  5

Here's the section from my House Rules on grenades.  I've modified 
this from the TNE rules.

24.  Special Rule--Hand Grenades.  This rule modifies the hand grenade
rule listed on pg. 59 of T4.  Roll a normal to hit throw as described in the thrown
  weapon rules, and a successful hit means that the grenade landed
  with the target in the primary burst radius.  A miss indicates
  that the scatter rules must be used--see below.  A spectacular
  success means that the grenade actually landed on the target when it
  exploded--apply double damage.

  Concussion.
  Grenades have two values listed in their damage columns.  One
  designates the concussive force of the grenade indicated with a
  "C".  The number beside this indicates how many damage dice the
  grenade does due to concussion.  The second listing is a number
  with a "B".  This is the grenade's primary burst radius in meters. 
  Targets within this burst radius will be hit by fragments--how
  many depends (see below).

  Targets at greater range than the primary burst radius, up to twice
  the primary burst radius, are in the weapon's secondary burst
  radius.  Targets in this secondary burst radius will take less
  damage than those in the primary burst radius.  These ranges 	
  continue until no more damage can be applied to targets, but the
  damage rating of the grenade is reduced at each burst radius. 
  When the damage of the grenade drops below 1, the grenade cannot
  inflict any more damage.  Use the chart below to determine the
  damage a grenade does due to concussive force.  When applying 	
  concussion damage use the second column on the critical hit chart to
  determine location.

  Concussive Damage for grenades.

                                Indoor or Enclosed Areas            Outdoor or Open Areas
  Burst Radius	                 Full damage                          Full damage
  2 x Burst Radius            1/2 damage                           1/4 damage
  3 x Burst Radius            1/4 damage                           1/8 damage
  4 x Burst Radius            1/8 damage                            1/16 damage

  Fragmentation.
  Characters in the burst radius will also be hit with fragments
  (given that the grenade is designed to throw fragments).  Roll on
  one of the charts below to see how many fragments hit targets
  based on which burst radius they are in.  Each fragment in the 	
  primary burst radius will do 2 D6 damage.  Each fragment in the
  secondary (or beyond) burst radius will do 1 D6 of damage.

  PRIMARY BURST RADIUS               SECONDARY BURST RADIUS

  D6        Shrapnel                                     D6          Shrapnel	
  1-2        No fragments                             1-3        No fragments
  3-4        1 fragment                                  4-5        1 fragment
  5-6        1 D6 fragments                           6           1 D6 fragments

  Deviation.
  If the to hit throw fails, the grenade will deviate.  Use one of the
  two charts below depending on which way the character was
  throwing.  Roll two dice.  The result will indicate which
  direction the grenade scatters before it explodes.  The center
  square indicates the target square.  ^ or \ indicates the
  direction of the throw (pointing towards the 7).  Distance is
  calculated by rolling 2 D6 and halving the result.

SCATTER DIAGRAM			DIAGONAL SCATTER DIAGRAM

  6		7		8		7		8		9

  5		^		9		4		\		4,12

  2,10		3,11		4,12		5		2,11		3,10

  Other Notes for Grenades.
  1.	The 3 D6 maximum damage rule does not apply to grenades.
  2.	Handle fragmentation attacks just like slug throwers--armor can
  block the frags. 
  3.	Concussion effects ignore armor. 
  4.	The concussive damage of a grenade can be ignored based on the situation
  i.e. in a vacuum.
  5.	There may be some protection from partial cover such as crouching
  behind a vehicle or hunkering down in a foxhole.  The GM makes the final
   decision, but partial cover could afford half damage from
   concussion.  For instance, this would be the case if a character
   was lying prone in a foxhole.  Partial cover may effect 	
   fragmentation damage as well.
  6.	Characters in small, tight enclosures such as armored vehicles,
  small concrete rooms, or narrow trenches suffer automatic double 
concussion damage.


And here's a section from my House Rules on zero-G/vacuum combat.

5.	Vacuum Grenades.  Grenades will not produce concussion in vacuum.
If the grenade is in physical contact with a target (not just in
the primary burst radius), the 	 grenade will provide explosion damage
(the same as the concussion damage) to the target.

  All fragments from a grenade exploded in vacuum will do 2 D6
  damage--no matter the burst radius.  Although there is no concussion, the
burst radius of the grenade should still be calculated (based on
concussion damage as normal) to determine fragmentation effects. 
Although the grenade is not losing force, this will simulate the
spread of the fragments, and therefore make it harder to hit
individuals at great distance.


As far as HE rounds go, I allow a danger space like in CT and MT, but 
in space, I do not allow use of the danger space.  I do not decrease 
the damage an HE round does when it hits a target though.

Maybe this is enlightening.  Maybe this is confusing.  But since 
right now, in my game, we are in the middle of a huge fight in 
zero-G, I had a lot of information on the subject.

I hope it helps.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #734
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